Sunday, October 21, 2007

The Problem With Finding Problems With Homeschooling.

I'm sure everyone noted YDD's exploration into why homeschooling isn't such a good idea, but perhaps as interesting is the somewhat deserved comment shredding he received. Strangely enough, I've got fairly mixed opinions on homeschooling.

On one hand, most people that I've known whom were homeschooled tend to be the least socially adjusted folks I've ever met. Especially in college, I noticed quickly that kids who saw their parents for hours a day being 'educated' were unable to socialize with kids whom didn't. Universally, the parents who decide to home school their kids tend to be the least connected with reality anyhow (see YDD's post for an explanation) and I think we can say without any uncertainty that when a homeschooling parent says that he's trying to "prevent his kid from being indoctrinated by the homosexual liberal evolution people, what they're really afraid of is their kid accepting reality more so than the parents, which would really ruin Christmas for some of these parents who think that accepting a little science and being forward thinking will grant you a one way ticket to the hellz. The natural danger to the child is pretty obvious. We're talking about a group of people that believe:

-The Earth is only 4000 years old.
-Evolution is racist.
-That Dan Proft is a hot, hot college coed
-The pill causes cancer.
-There is no such thing as economic poverty, there is only moral poverty.
-Jews are merely "unperfected Christians"

We can all be honest about it: A ton of homeschool environments are little more than the American Taliban's version of a madrassa, which is to say it's going to breed yet another 'tiny vocal minority' of people living the religious extremist life style. Keeping your kid out of regular schools, seems pretty extreme to me, amirite?




On the other hand, as these poor kids will have to go home at some point, I would imagine being dumb is probably in their best interest. I don't have a stat on me, but the cop gene says that the type of parents whom home school their children are probably more....shall we say....'Biblical' in their use of corporal punishment which translates nicely into abuse. That being said, if the parents are drunk from the Jeebus juice, the kids probably aren't going to come out into the real world all that well adjusted anyhow.

So it's a quandary: Either way the kids come whacked out of their noggins at no harm to society. I guess it's just a matter of whether it's better for the kid to be exposed to some modicum of reality while they're in their younger days.

There are, of course, completely good reasons to homeschool your kids as well. These tend to not be issues of 'values', but rather academic proficiency considerations. There are some kids whom are just way too slow for schools and there are some kids who are way too fast for regular schools. In those narrow circumstances, who really beefs with the idea of a parent recognizing their kid's handicap and/or doogiehowserdom and takes the initiative if other options aren't available.

Note: I know what you're doing. You're about hit "post comment" and tell me about all the medical doctors who choose to homeschool their kids, and how many well adjusted homeschooled brain surgeons you heard about on lifesitefamilyfaghatingnews.com. Save it. I'm not talking about the majority of homeschooling parents. You know. The crazy ones.

So call me distinctly on the side with the homeschoolers. Sure, my kids will still make fun of your kids. But I'm hard pressed to come up with a good reason to be against letting people teach their own kids. The statistics on where these kids stand academically are, understandably, murky. Public and private schools regularly produced screwed up and socially maladjusted kids, and ultimately - who are we to make any commentary on the legality of how you raise your kids, so long as it's not abusive.

And then there's this.


The Center on Education Policy (an advocacy group with an agenda to promote public schools over private schools) has released a study in which they conclude that private schools are really no better than public schools.


In all honesty, the folks at SayAnything were really digging into why such a study does not serve as an argument against school choice, but I think the core idea here is that we can test for basic reading/writing/math/etc. proficiency and that if there's limited statistical difference between public and private schools, thus as long as the parent doing the teaching isn't woefully stupid, home schooled kids will probably perform within the same range as kids from traditional schools. Naturally, that's because the ultimate point of standardized testing is to determine what you know and not whether or not how you learned it actually contributes to your ability to think critically - which is the most important thing, imo, about education to begin with.

That, if anything, might provide for the best argument on why in the correct set of circumstance homeschooling can potentially be at least as good as regular education. Which is mainly because...well...most schools aren't doing so good, anyhow.

21 comments:

Dawn 4:27 AM  

Where's the post where someone abandons anecdotes and assumptions and goes out and actually does some research on homeschooling?

So thanks, but no thanks. Maybe you support my right to homeschool but you're prepetuating stereotypes that lead others to oppose that right. Not much help.

Anonymous,  6:28 AM  

I'm not sure where the stereotype is in that post.

Are you trying to argue that there aren't fundamentalist Christians who homeschool their kids to keep them away from the liberal agenda?

JBP 6:34 AM  

Dan,

Are you trying to argue that there aren't fundamentalist leftists who want public schools to advance the socialist agenda?

JBP

Dawn 7:52 AM  

"Universally, the parents who decide to home school their kids tend to be the least connected with reality anyhow"

That's not a stereotype?

Devoting most of the post to fundies doesn't help either. The implication is, by weight of words, that we are fundies. It's rather like arguing for gay rights but spending most of the debate making sure the reader knows that you're not gay...The point may be you support gay rights but the implication a reader will likely take away is that there's something wrong with being gay.

"Are you trying to argue that there aren't fundamentalist Christians who homeschool their kids to keep them away from the liberal agenda?"

What in my comment even begins to suggest that?

Anonymous,  8:42 AM  

I said this on the other blog and I will say it again here: it is the right AND DUTY of parents to be the PRIMARY EDUCATORS of their children. This is essential to the survival of a free society.
It just so happens that the vast majority of parents will choose to delegate all or part of that responsibility to others, i.e. public or private schools or tutors. Some will choose to take the entire responsibility onto their shoulders by homeschooling. However, given the economic and social realities of most parents having to work outside the home, those parents probably will remain a small minority.
It seems ironic to complain about homeschooling parents -- parents who are 'too involved' in their child's education -- when public school teachers complain all the time about parents who seem to take NO interest in their children's education, to the point of not bothering to see that their child is attending class, doing his or her homework, or not bothering to show up for parent-teacher conferences. Parental involvement makes a difference no matter what form of schooling is chosen.
Bottom line:
1. ALL parents "homeschool" their children by the example they set and the importance they place upon education.
2. A good school (public or private) never forgets that it exists to help parents carry out THEIR duty to educate children... not the other way around.
3. It is true that far too many parents abdicate or abuse this responsibility, leaving schools, courts, and society in general to pick up the slack. For those parents who do so in an extreme fashion (physical or sexual abuse, neglect, etc.) there are legal means available to curb or take away their parental rights. But just because some parents abuse this right, does not justify taking it away from all parents.

Dan L 9:15 AM  

@JB:

I'm not really big into 'socialist agendas'. Generally speaking I don't really get into the whole idea of agendas in general.

@Dawn:

I notice that you're from Canada. I think maybe that you perhaps you experience your own tiny Canadian reality, whilst we're talking about a certain plurality of American home schooling. It's not a coincidence that the biggest advocates of homeschooling tend to be the fundie types.

----
What in my comment even begins to suggest that?
----

I'm just not sure what your point is. By virtue of keeping your kid out of regular schooling (unless their are special circumstances involved) you are probably a kook.

Dawn 12:41 PM  

"I notice that you're from Canada. I think maybe that you perhaps you experience your own tiny Canadian reality, whilst we're talking about a certain plurality of American home schooling. It's not a coincidence that the biggest advocates of homeschooling tend to be the fundie types."

That is ridiculous. I've been a part of various online hsing communities, mostly American, for 5 years. It's why I'm well aware that's there's a large section of the homeschooling community, the American homeschooling community, out there that are not christian fundamentalists. If a mom in her tiny Canadian reality can figure that out surely an American armed with Google could.

As for who the biggest advocates for homeschooling are, I'm well aware that the HSLDA holds sway in that arena and who their religious sympathies are with. I'm also aware that they don't represent many, and possibly most, homeschoolers.

"By virtue of keeping your kid out of regular schooling (unless their are special circumstances involved) you are probably a kook."

Your statement was, "Universally, the parents who decide to home school their kids tend to be the least connected with reality anyhow."

'Universally,' doesn't leave room for special circumstances. Re-phrasing the same statement in somewhat softer terms and doesn't explain it or offer any hint as to the reasoning (aside from the use of circular reasoning that is) or evidence you used to reach your conclusion.

Dan L 2:46 PM  

So you're basically complaining about choice of wording?



Homeschooler - Strike 1
"Christian" - Strike 2
Mommy Blogger - Strike 3

Extreme Wisdom 6:09 PM  

Dan,

Just FYI, that study re: Private v. Public is the Government School's spin on the same data that the "school choice" movement has been using all along. Which is this....

Corrected for SES (socio-economic status), spending has absolutely no effect on results.

The same stats are used in the study you cited. As many have pointed out, their study is worth exactly nothing.

Chicago spends 10-12K/per kid and fails miserably. Rural districts spend 6K and perform jsut as well as Suburbs spenidng 13K, and New Trier (surprise surprise) performs as well as North Shore Country Day or Loyola.

Big Whoop. They still have too much power. They still waste money by the bucket load anywhere they can, and the poor and the Black and the Hispanic are still subject to a form of educational apartheid that would incite riots against these scum in a just or rational society.

Given that we aren't that rational, the ding bat soccer mom and her emasculated husband still do just what their oily Superintendent tells them to do - which is vote themselves into property tax poverty for the sake of a corrupt government monopoly.

So much for white liberal guilt - they are still screwing the black and the poor.

Rolfe 6:09 PM  

The last time I checked, the qualities of the person speaking have no bearing on the validity of their statements.

So I don't know if you can disregard Dawn just because she is a mom, as noble as that sentiment may seem.

If you read her comment, you might notice that she said the choice of wording was irrelevant. But of course, she had three strikes so you didn't need to bother reading, right?

Anyway, think a little bit about whehter you can make any universal statements about homeschoolers, moms, christians, or any other social group. You might find they don't stand up to scrutiny.

Dawn 9:20 PM  

I'm not sure if he's read any of my comments, at least with the intent of crafting a reasonable response.

Ah well. It's a common predjudice that we kooky, Christian, Canadian, homeschooling mommy bloggers aren't worth listening to. It's a struggle my fellow kooky, Christian, Canadian, homeschooling mommy bloggers and I have to face every day.

Anonymous,  9:33 PM  

Bruno,

I think you missed the point. Nobody is making an argument for the merits of the public school system, rather just pointing out that our current most common forms of education are fairly abysmal as good reason to not beef with the idea of homeschooling as an alternate option.

Actually rolfe, you're right. She did say that choice of wording was irrelevant, just before she - a self identified 'Christian' (and I think we all know what it means when we hear "Christian" instead of Lutheran, Protestant, Catholic, etc) - decided to beef very heavily with my categorizations of:

-Home schooling parents as being, by and large, religious fundamentalists
-Religious fundamentalists being disconnected from reality.

Which essentially are more beefs with the terms used, rather than the facts that we see here in Illinois, which come complete with compelling documentation.

I recommend you take your anarchist trolldom, and go home.

Anonymous,  9:44 PM  

anarchist from san antonio

dont you have cows to tip

Hanley Family 12:37 AM  
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous,  12:38 AM  

aw, Dawn, at least we can use "who" and "whom" correctly.

The problem with finding any problems to discuss here is that you have provided nothing but your own anecdotal evidence which is not independently verifiable nor supported by any study other than your appeal to the general stereotype that "Universally, the parents who decide to home school their kids tend to be the least connected with reality anyhow."

Anonymous,  6:25 AM  

----
"Universally, the parents who decide to home school their kids tend to be the least connected with reality anyhow."
----

Do I need to spell this out in B I G B O L D L E T T E R S so that you mommy bloggers can get it?

The vast majority of homeschoolers in Illinois tend to be religious fundamentalist parents. Do you object to this statement? If so, based on what evidence?

The largest advocate of homseschooling in Illinois tends to be religious fundamentalist organization. Do you object to this statement? If so, based on what evidence?

The only anecdotal evidence is my personal quip that I've noticed that homeschooled kids (because their parents are generally crazy, fundamentalist Christians, and incredibly stupid) is that they end up being socially maladjusted - which I'm sure there are plenty of stats out there to provide for, but it's not like you'd ever admit that you're screwing up your kid by keeping him home.

Alternately, your friend Dawn - the brilliant educator that she is - is telling us that there is no value to a college degree. Wow. Really preparing her kids for the modern era, right?


Oh my god. Illinoize has been invaded by quasi-amish fundie parents who live in log cabins with dirt floors.

Dawn 8:01 AM  

"Actually rolfe, you're right. She did say that choice of wording was irrelevant, just before she - a self identified 'Christian' (and I think we all know what it means when we hear "Christian" instead of Lutheran, Protestant, Catholic, etc) - decided to beef very heavily with my categorizations of:

-Home schooling parents as being, by and large, religious fundamentalists
-Religious fundamentalists being disconnected from reality."

1) Research skills. A click on my name reveals my homeschooling blog where you could have tested your assumption about what kind of christian I am. Hint; You're wrong.

2) Consistency. You said homeschoolers, "tend to be the least connected with reality anyhow," not fundamentalists. It was the homeschooler bit I took issue with. Scroll up. Honestly, it's all there for anyone to read.

3)Ad hominem arguments. Don't use them. They generally create the impression of someone who's well has run dry in regards to a debate and has resorted to desperate measures.

"The vast majority of homeschoolers in Illinois tend to be religious fundamentalist parents. Do you object to this statement? If so, based on what evidence?"

It's a pretty basic principle of debate that if you make a claim, you need to support it. Keep in mind though that you also showing poor form in the constant shifting of goalposts here. The quote that's caused trouble used the term, "universally," and universal tends to imply something bigger than Illinois.

Anyhow, it's been fun but I'd definitely say the well has run dry and I'm not much for tossing buckets down empty wells.

Have a good Day Dan.

Anonymous,  8:26 AM  

The vast majority of homeschoolers in Illinois tend to be religious fundamentalist parents. Do you object to this statement? If so, based on what evidence?
The largest advocate of homseschooling in Illinois tends to be religious fundamentalist organization. Do you object to this statement? If so, based on what evidence?

Who is this "largest advocate of homeschooling in Illinois"? You have me stumped, so please tell me who this Dark Lord is.

The vast majority? Where's your evidence? You must be an education researcher as your evidence is unfounded and ridiculous and most importantly, moot. Back up that statement, please.
Do you want to eliminate all religious fundamentalist parents from homeschooling or just in general?
I can supply information for you that would help you understand that you are way in the dark. But it seems more appropriate for someone like me who likes to stand on solid research ground that you prove that you're capable of backing up your claims. You're big on education...not necessarily schools, right or wrong?
It won't be a hard task to do the research, I assure you.

Colleges and universities are seeking out homeschoolers for their independent and non-standardized love of learning.Some universities (Virginia Commonwealth University, for one) have scholarships specifically for homeschoolers.

You have looked at the attrition rate for college freshmen for those that are non-homeschooled...the vast majority? How's that workin'?
How 'bout the remedial classes offered in the colleges now to 'catch up'? I don't think that new dept was developed for homeschoolers, was it?

Oh my god. Illinoize has been invaded by quasi-amish fundie parents who live in log cabins with dirt floors.

Your social skills were gained....where?

Rolfe 9:17 AM  

Dan, choice of wording can be important when the words mean something. The word "universal" actually has a pretty specific meaning, and it does not mean "by and large".

It's amusing that I only got one strike -- for being an anarchist -- because I wrote one post on the wrong site. I guess being too liberal is a worse offense than being a woman who speaks up (aka 'mommyblogger')? I expect to see you on Fox News soon!

I'm interested in this because I'm a home schooling parent, and most of the homeschooling parents I associate with are not fundamentalist christians. The ones who are fundies are pretty reasonable. People have all sorts of reasons for homeschooling, but usually it comes down to this: they love their kids and want to do all they can to help them become responsible adults.

A home education can be an excellent one. Children can pursue their interests at their own pace, with no limits on the questions they can ask. They can get extra help in areas where they struggle without being held back in other academic and social areas. They have teachers who know them very well and have the highest motive to help them succeed.

Well, I don't have any cows to tip so I'm going to get back to teaching my kids.

Anonymous,  9:47 AM  

If yo do not understand the difference between anecdote, stereotype and fact, discussion will be very difficult. You haven't cited anything but your own experience.

Sorry it was so bad, but if I were to cite nothing but my personal experience with public schoolers, the picture would be no different. I knew a great deal of people ill equipped for college and socially inept. And I didn't know any homeschoolers.

It is also a bit difficult to have any sort of discussion with someone who doesn't seem to be interested in doing anything but insult those he disagrees with and doesn't understand. What do you even mean by fundamentalist? Anyone who professes faith, or only those with dirt floors?

And what is the value of a college degree? Greatly depends on what you want to do with it. If we want to prepare for the 21st century which looks to be bringing challenges and needs which have not yet been identified, we are going to need a change to the status quo to meet it effectively. Which means a highly diversified educational system rather than a centralized one. Otherwise, we will have all our students prepared for a world that may not really exist as we currently know it with little flexibility.

Anonymous,  10:42 AM  

To Dan L, I think I saw a video of you teaching a class of students. You were waving your hands wildly. Was that you, where do you teach in Chicago?

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